2019/10/09 - Pet Pat Pot

[fenrirblack]

Okay, so I didn't look up the technical definitions before. The definitions isn't nearly as important as the implications being implied by using the words. Lois shouldn't be asking if Poncho is "tame" because that implies that he was some wild savage beast before joining the ECP. In other words it's insensitive. It would be like saying a human who has lived the last ten years in a secluded cabin in the woods then comes back to live in the city is now "tame." It would imply that living alone in the woods makes one "feral" (in a wild state, especially after escape from captivity or domestication) which itself has negative connotations. What I'm trying to say is by asking if Poncho is now "tame" implies that he wasn't tame before. Now that I have take the time to google the word "tame" it technically means "not dangerous or frightened of people" so that means Lois is implying they (specially Poncho) were dangerous to people before joining the ECP which is wrong.

There is one other factor to consider: Poncho specifically. Given that he, in his mind, is still a dangerous feral (even if he's really a pushover) then a word that we might find a bit off-putting would appeal to him. A word that implies that he was once (and perhaps is still) dangerous would be more likely to butter him up.

All ferals might not respond to that, but I suspect a young male wolf would.

I kinda mentioned that in the first post. The fact that animals like Poncho see being "feral" as this ideal way of being because it is part of their culture. Being feral and wild is who they are and who they were even if it technically isn't the case anymore. That tells me that there needs to be a different word used that is both the correct vocabulary and culturally appropriate. That is what the humans don't seem to see is that the animals themselves living in the wild is a culture onto itself. A culture we have seen in the "Wolf's Clothing" chapter. Because I agree that someone like Poncho who is still more adamantly against human conformity would still like being referred to as feral because that implies to them that they are still wolves and free to indulge in their own culture. Essentially be themselves while indulging in human customs of their choosing without losing who they are.

Rick could make an entire comic onto itself that solely focuses on "feral" animals struggling to adapt to human society and the roadblocks that come from it instead of switching back and forth between the ferals like the wolves and the pets like Peanut and Grape.

[NHWestoN]

Okay, so I didn't look up the technical definitions before. The definitions isn't nearly as important as the implications being implied by using the words. Lois shouldn't be asking if Poncho is "tame" because that implies that he was some wild savage beast before joining the ECP. In other words it's insensitive. It would be like saying a human who has lived the last ten years in a secluded cabin in the woods then comes back to live in the city is now "tame." It would imply that living alone in the woods makes one "feral" (in a wild state, especially after escape from captivity or domestication) which itself has negative connotations. What I'm trying to say is by asking if Poncho is now "tame" implies that he wasn't tame before. Now that I have take the time to google the word "tame" it technically means "not dangerous or frightened of people" so that means Lois is implying they (specially Poncho) were dangerous to people before joining the ECP which is wrong.

There is one other factor to consider: Poncho specifically. Given that he, in his mind, is still a dangerous feral (even if he's really a pushover) then a word that we might find a bit off-putting would appeal to him. A word that implies that he was once (and perhaps is still) dangerous would be more likely to butter him up.

All ferals might not respond to that, but I suspect a young male wolf would.

I kinda mentioned that in the first post. The fact that animals like Poncho see being "feral" as this ideal way of being because it is part of their culture. Being feral and wild is who they are and who they were even if it technically isn't the case anymore. That tells me that there needs to be a different word used that is both the correct vocabulary and culturally appropriate. That is what the humans don't seem to see is that the animals themselves living in the wild is a culture onto itself. A culture we have seen in the "Wolf's Clothing" chapter. Because I agree that someone like Poncho who is still more adamantly against human conformity would still like being referred to as feral because that implies to them that they are still wolves and free to indulge in their own culture. Essentially be themselves while indulging in human customs of their choosing without losing who they are.

Rick could make an entire comic onto itself that solely focuses on "feral" animals struggling to adapt to human society and the roadblocks that come from it instead of switching back and forth between the ferals like the wolves and the pets like Peanut and Grape.

Rick has "flirted" with the concept. Zachery seems to move comfortably between the two worlds, although Jessica has been both his guide and guardian. In fact, Jessica seems quite able to slip into the human/pet realm herself. That, of course begs the question, is Jessica (and the racoons, Corey, and others) "struggling to adapt the human society" or simply adept at moving in and out of it for their own purposes (food, supplies, etc.)? Unlike Gale and Pueblo, they've not made any real friendships on the "other side" or created roles for themselves (ex. jobs, professions).

And then there's Karishad……….

[dr_eirik]

Rick has "flirted" with the concept. Zachery seems to move comfortably between the two worlds, although Jessica has been both his guide and guardian. In fact, Jessica seems quite able to slip into the human/pet realm herself. That, of course begs the question, is Jessica (and the racoons, Corey, and others) "struggling to adapt the human society" or simply adept at moving in and out of it for their own purposes (food, supplies, etc.)? Unlike Gale and Pueblo, they've not made any real friendships on the "other side" or created roles for themselves (ex. jobs, professions).

And then there's Karishad……….

I think he's showing animals in a state of adaptation. Look at what they are: Skunks, possums and raccoons. All animals that are adept at living alongside humans. I don't think they are struggling to adapt at all, but struggling to survive in a world that humans keep changing. Jessica is the most obvious example of an animal that doesn't care all that much for human society, but recognizes that she has to adapt to survive

[Amazee Dayzee]

Since Jessica is now living in an ACTUAL house instead of a den that was built for her, it probably won't be long until she becomes fully adapted to human civilization.

[fenrirblack]

Since Jessica is now living in an ACTUAL house instead of a den that was built for her, it probably won't be long until she becomes fully adapted to human civilization.

Jess has always struck me as someone who would be the first to join human civilization if there were no humans. Out of all the ferals she is the closest to being integrated.

[Champion Wallace]

It appears Poncho buys into the the common myth that the feral life is nobler and grander than one within the human world

Building off what Argent said, in response to fenrirblack (I'd use more quotes, but I don't want to break the page), the comic almost exclusively refers to forest animals as "feral" and not "undomesticated" or "wild". With how anthropomorphic they are partially domesticated, but because they choose (or are forced to by circumstances outside of their control) to live outside of human civilization, they are considered feral by said humans. The other factor in addition to them having little to no contact with civilization is they've never been a part of (human) civilization. A person might remove themselves from civilization by moving to a secluded cabin for 10 year, but they still know how to be a part of human society. They'll still put their pants on one leg at a time like everyone else. Sure HP animals have their own version of civilization, but it's just that: their own version. In that way they aren't that different from indigenous people that chose to remain separate and were called savages. Animals resisting coexistence wouldn't have to be because they think it's impossible if instead they don't want to live like a human. I don't think this is what you want to hear, but if, as you say, "Feral and tame don't apply because those words are meant for real animals in the real world", then maybe those words simply have a different definition in the Housepets world.

WH-B-D-LADY .. what words was he suppressing there?

I think the first two could be "What? But!"

I can't think of a "D" word other than Dang or some other phase used when blocking a river to create a reservoir.

"Don't", perhaps.

[Argent]

Lois shouldn't be asking if Poncho is "tame" because that implies that he was some wild savage beast before joining the ECP.

That's literally what he was, in the context of the HP! universe. Since they have human-comparable intelligence, no wild animal is as wild as our wild animals, but they were as wild and savage as animals get in their world. They lived by killing and eating people who were as intelligent and articulate as they were. They were expected to engage in mortal combat with other carnivores for territory.

I would say this was part of the fridge horror inherent in Housepets!, except that Rick regularly takes it out of the fridge and makes a nice fried horror sandwich and serves it to us with a side of humor.

Poncho *wasn't* tame before. His bragging about a "catch and kill lifestyle" was presented as humorous because he didn't do that any more, but that was his life before the wolves moved to Babylon Gardens.

What did Zach say to the forest animals, "I hope you don't get eaten".

That's not something you say to a guy living in a cabin in the woods.

[fenrirblack]

Lois shouldn't be asking if Poncho is "tame" because that implies that he was some wild savage beast before joining the ECP.

That's literally what he was, in the context of the HP! universe. Since they have human-comparable intelligence, no wild animal is as wild as our wild animals, but they were as wild and savage as animals get in their world. They lived by killing and eating people who were as intelligent and articulate as they were. They were expected to engage in mortal combat with other carnivores for territory.

I would say this was part of the fridge horror inherent in Housepets!, except that Rick regularly takes it out of the fridge and makes a nice fried horror sandwich and serves it to us with a side of humor.

Poncho *wasn't* tame before. His bragging about a "catch and kill lifestyle" was presented as humorous because he didn't do that any more, but that was his life before the wolves moved to Babylon Gardens.

What did Zach say to the forest animals, "I hope you don't get eaten".

That's not something you say to a guy living in a cabin in the woods.

Yeah, they killed to survive just like everyone else. Humans did the same thing and still kill and eat the same animals which are just as intelligent but we wouldn’t call them savage (people did but that was a long time ago) or tame. A guy living in the woods would go out each day, hunt a deer, slaughter it, and defend his home but we wouldn’t say they’re feral or call them tame. Animals are still smart enough to hunt and kill properly and control their territory the same way people do just in a different fashion. Look at Miles and Gale. After a certain point, the animals learned to approach humans with caution and understanding but Some humans never did. So why would an animal who lives by their own culture be treated differently when they essentially are living as a human would in the same situation. Hunt to live, defend the territory (home), and survive in the area of their choosing with just as much intelligence and understanding as a human? Yes there is a very obvious answer that involves a lot of sociology mumbo jumbo.

[NHWestoN]

Since Jessica is now living in an ACTUAL house instead of a den that was built for her, it probably won't be long until she becomes fully adapted to human civilization.

Jess has always struck me as someone who would be the first to join human civilization if there were no humans. Out of all the ferals she is the closest to being integrated.

Especially to Daytime television …!

[dr_eirik]

Since Jessica is now living in an ACTUAL house instead of a den that was built for her, it probably won't be long until she becomes fully adapted to human civilization.

Jess has always struck me as someone who would be the first to join human civilization if there were no humans. Out of all the ferals she is the closest to being integrated.

Especially to Daytime television …!

Whats funny is that she's been grudgingly dragged deeper and deeper into civilization than she wanted to be. Her association with Zach has brought her bits of it piecemeal, and then with the upgrade to her home she is only about half a step from being in the ECP anyway, regardless if she admits it or not.

It wouldn't shock me if a future arc has her joining the ECP for some reason. I think it would take some tremendous outside pressure to do it, but I could see her doing it for purely pragmatic reasons.

[Champion Wallace]

Lois shouldn't be asking if Poncho is "tame" because that implies that he was some wild savage beast before joining the ECP.

That's literally what he was, in the context of the HP! universe. Since they have human-comparable intelligence, no wild animal is as wild as our wild animals, but they were as wild and savage as animals get in their world. They lived by killing and eating people who were as intelligent and articulate as they were. They were expected to engage in mortal combat with other carnivores for territory.

To be fair, real wolfs will avoid fighting other packs more often than they'll engage in mortal combat with other wolfs.

Yeah, they killed to survive just like everyone else. Humans did the same thing and still kill and eat the same animals which are just as intelligent but we wouldn’t call them savage (people did but that was a long time ago) or tame. A guy living in the woods would go out each day, hunt a deer, slaughter it, and defend his home but we wouldn’t say they’re feral or call them tame.

Yes, humans eat other animals, but you'd be hard pressed to say that a cow that goes into someone's hamburger is as intelligent as a deer a wolf takes down. Additionally, you could argue that ranches are more humane then hunting or whatever happened here.

[fenrirblack]

Yeah, they killed to survive just like everyone else. Humans did the same thing and still kill and eat the same animals which are just as intelligent but we wouldn’t call them savage (people did but that was a long time ago) or tame. A guy living in the woods would go out each day, hunt a deer, slaughter it, and defend his home but we wouldn’t say they’re feral or call them tame.

Yes, humans eat other animals, but you'd be hard pressed to say that a cow that goes into someone's hamburger is as intelligent as a deer a wolf takes down. Additionally, you could argue that ranches are more humane then hunting or whatever happened here.

That is a DEEP philosophical question of whether it is more humane for animals to be raised for slaughter or allowed to live free. It is a question of whether it is better for them to live in blissful ignorance or know that they can live and die each day. I'm not referring to the cows or livestock. Its been established that they aren't nearly as intelligent as other animals due to the domestication process. Bojack already made a really good example of what its like to raise anthropomorphic animals for slaughter. There is no good way to spin the wolves displaying their kill for the world but that goes back to the fridge horror. You can't tell me that hunters don't mount their kill on walls in the HPU the same way they do in the real world. Its one of those things that are socially acceptable but morally questionable.

[Welsh Halfwit]

Yeah, they killed to survive just like everyone else. Humans did the same thing and still kill and eat the same animals which are just as intelligent but we wouldn’t call them savage (people did but that was a long time ago) or tame. A guy living in the woods would go out each day, hunt a deer, slaughter it, and defend his home but we wouldn’t say they’re feral or call them tame.

Yes, humans eat other animals, but you'd be hard pressed to say that a cow that goes into someone's hamburger is as intelligent as a deer a wolf takes down. Additionally, you could argue that ranches are more humane then hunting or whatever happened here.

That is a DEEP philosophical question of whether it is more humane for animals to be raised for slaughter or allowed to live free. It is a question of whether it is better for them to live in blissful ignorance or know that they can live and die each day. I'm not referring to the cows or livestock. Its been established that they aren't nearly as intelligent as other animals due to the domestication process. Bojack already made a really good example of what its like to raise anthropomorphic animals for slaughter. There is no good way to spin the wolves displaying their kill for the world but that goes back to the fridge horror. You can't tell me that hunters don't mount their kill on walls in the HPU the same way they do in the real world. Its one of those things that are socially acceptable but morally questionable.

Dukat - "This Bajoran obsession with alleged Cardassian improprieties during the occupation is really quite distasteful."
Sisko - "I suppose if you're Bajoran, so was the occupation."
Star Trek - Deep Space 9 "Duet"

It's one of those things where right and wrong is a matter of perspective. The perspective that we're on top of the food pile and the most intelligent does us no good whatsoever when in the wild without a weapon. But, then, most of us will never be in the wild without a weapon and we know better than to try. Same as they, apparently, have the intelligence to stay out of towns unless forced in. Who's more intelligent in how we avoid hunters?

[Amazee Dayzee]

Obviously if the feral animals who live out in the wild are still alive and haven't become food for anything else, it is them. You would have to be a true survival expert along the lines of Bear Grylls to survive out within the wild.

[Argent]

Yeah, they killed to survive just like everyone else. Humans did the same thing and still kill and eat the same animals which are just as intelligent but we wouldn’t call them savage (people did but that was a long time ago) or tame.

I'd call them creepy as heck. Now we're getting into the raw fridge horror of the HP! universe, but at least they've bred animals that don't seem to mind being eaten and for humans before the Neolithic Revolution which made living almost entirely off grains a practical possibility... yeh, savage and even monstrous seems about right. In any case, given how utterly messed up they are I don't think her referring to him as "tame" is anything but descriptive. You can't dig further into this without condemning the whole society, and worrying about a minor word choice is a bit "straining at gnats".

I think if I were to fall through a plot hole into the HP! world I would have to go Full Metal Zootopia and not eat eat anything with a more complex nervous system than a fish. Even if I were living in a cabin in the woods.

[Amazee Dayzee]

Yeah but what I wanna know is are you sure it would be something you could do? It takes a HUGE adjustment to dramatically change your diet like that and cut out meat period. Despite how easy most vegetarians and vegans make it look you still will crave meat for a while.

[Argent]

Oh... kay, change of subject I guess.

Yeah but what I wanna know is are you sure it would be something you could do? It takes a HUGE adjustment to dramatically change your diet like that and cut out meat period. Despite how easy most vegetarians and vegans make it look you still will crave meat for a while.

Where did I suggest cutting out meat? Fish is absolutely meat.

[NHWestoN]

Yeah but what I wanna know is are you sure it would be something you could do? It takes a HUGE adjustment to dramatically change your diet like that and cut out meat period. Despite how easy most vegetarians and vegans make it look you still will crave meat for a while.

Speaking only for myself, I';ve been a "vegger" for decades … and there are still certain meat dishes I miss.

[Amazee Dayzee]

Oh I'm sorry. Just when I think of vegetarians or vegans that they cut out meat as in land animals and fish are fair game. Some vegetarians (pescatarians) eat fish so you would be switching over from eating land animals to being a pescatarian but I imagine the transition would still be hard for a while.

[Vertigo Fox]

You know, I've had the opinion for a while that vegetarianism -- at least when it's evangelized for the purpose of "saving the animals" -- can be partially misguided. Prey animals are still regularly killed for meat by other animals and I doubt they care very much whether the sort of animal doing the killing walks on two legs or four. But more to the point I feel that it's not possible to convince everyone, and by trying to convince the people who do have that compassion for other creatures to cut out meat entirely you're taking their support away from the family owned or at least ethical farms who treat their animals well and give them good lives, while the meat-eaters who remain won't care one way or the other and so will support the factory farms that only care about making a profit because those can sell their product for cheaper.

I know it's not necessarily a popular opinion and some might legitimately disagree... I've also kinda felt that the idea that "animals shouldn't be killed for meat" devalues the parts of nature that I love the most, like the tigers and foxes and weasels of the world. So I see a certain value in accepting nature for what it is, even if that might be somewhat distateful to you, and that might colour my thought process in one way or another. But I do find it concerning because I'd rather ensure that an animal gets a good life, than try to enforce upon it my own idea of what is or isn't a good death.

[Argent]

In the HP! universe I think it would be best described as "stupidtarian".

[NHWestoN]

Living in New England and having been raised on codfish twice a week back in the fifties, I''ll occasionally still eat fish. I haven't had red or white meat in a very, very long time. I don't begrudge folks who eat meat their choices because I know it's not easy.

It would probably violate the controversy-avoidance provision of this forum to go into a digression about being vegetarian. The debate rages on enough in the public sphere that readers can find enough reasons to make their own informed decisions. Mine evolved out of religious, environmental, economic, and animal welfare concerns.

I don't know about "stupidarian" but Zachery Rabbit seems to be the only vegetarian in the HP universe, and there have been an occasional devouring or references thereto in the strips.

[Amazee Dayzee]

I don't think we have seen anybody been eaten by another cast member for years. I mean the last time I remember it happening was when Grape devoured Karl-Lenin Faust and that was a decade ago.

[Vertigo Fox]

I think there are plenty of other perfectly good reasons to go vegetarian, and if you're making a hard choice and sacrifice based on your own personal beliefs and moral code there's nothing more noble in the world.
I just wouldn't want you to make it based on somebody else's morals. Even mine.
So I only explain my own choice to be a meat-eater, and only because in the short time I've been here I seem to see vegetarianism discussed a lot... I don't mean to ask anyone else to agree with me, and I apologize if I came off that way. Just that if people are going to hate me for it, I'd rather find out sooner than later, because while I'd never deliberately lord my own identity over anyone, I'm also not going to pretend to be somebody else.

[Buster]

there's a place called wholesale club near me where i can get pork products in bulk at a better price per kilo than a good 90% of the other edibles on my shopping list, save for the rice or the noodles... if i had to swap that out for something not animal based, it would kill my budget. i like not running out of food because of stupid money.

[fenrirblack]

Read Beastars if you want to see what a society could look like if animals didn't prey on each other. Say what you want about the HPU or the "fridge horror" of eating other intelligent animals but you have not seen true horror until you read about what these animals go through to maintain a society where no one is supposed to eat meat.

[Amazee Dayzee]

Just from your description of it alone, yeah I can hazard a guess that it is high octane nightmare fuel at its finest.

[NHWestoN]

I think there are plenty of other perfectly good reasons to go vegetarian, and if you're making a hard choice and sacrifice based on your own personal beliefs and moral code there's nothing more noble in the world.
I just wouldn't want you to make it based on somebody else's morals. Even mine.
So I only explain my own choice to be a meat-eater, and only because in the short time I've been here I seem to see vegetarianism discussed a lot... I don't mean to ask anyone else to agree with me, and I apologize if I came off that way. Just that if people are going to hate me for it, I'd rather find out sooner than later, because while I'd never deliberately lord my own identity over anyone, I'm also not going to pretend to be somebody else.

It is indeed your choice, Fox, and no one's gonna hate you. Vegetarianism is logically a recurring theme here in a comic where humans, articulate animals (domesticated and feral), and sentient interact. In the comic strip Pogo, Walt Kelly always used "cannibobbullism" as a lurking menace among his creatures, sometimes coming pretty close to happening, but it never did. His swamp folks did have the occasional fish fry, however. The Horses at "Uncle Rueben's Farm" seemed to have accepted their eventually fates and showed no shock at Peanut's rather insensitive comment that "They all look delicious." Birds seem to be occasional victims, and I'm rather surprised that there hasn't been at least one recurring bird character in the strip (parrot, crow,) except for the long-absent Trinket, Corey's partner in crime.

[Argent]

I'm rather surprised that there hasn't been at least one recurring bird character in the strip (parrot, crow,) except for the long-absent Trinket, Corey's partner in crime.

What Chicken?

[Champion Wallace]

So I only explain my own choice to be a meat-eater, and only because in the short time I've been here I seem to see vegetarianism discussed a lot...

Actually, you just got (un)lucky. Discussions about eating meat and the virtues/consequences come up infrequently, maybe once a year.

[Amazee Dayzee]

I'm still horrified at what animals would be willing to do if they lived in a society where nobody was allowed to eat meat at all and what that will do to the social order.

[fenrirblack]

I'm still horrified at what animals would be willing to do if they lived in a society where nobody was allowed to eat meat at all and what that will do to the social order.

*cough Murder* *cough Black Market sales* *cough addiction*

[dr_eirik]

I wish I could remember what comic this was, it was about 20 years ago, but it dealt with a furry society where this was a problem. They were eating the dead, accidents and old age mostly. But it wasn't enough.

At some point, it is discovered that chickens (the only sapient bird, and apparently only barely) had been secretly kept as farm animals. Once its discovered, there is an upheaval and it is decided to have a lottery for which species will be kept as food animals. Turns out to be rats, which is widely viewed as rigged.

Comic I read ended with some rats starting a revolution. Not surevifvthere was a follow up or where I read it, except it was on paper.

Not sure it was good, but i remember it as being a bit creepy.

[fenrirblack]

That is the problem. You can't put moral and social values over nature. Carnivores have to eat meat because that is basic biology. Housepets does a good job with handling this better than I think most would but it still has a problem in that animals are not all equal especially compared to humans. If everyone one was equal from animals and humans then things would be vastly different and more complicated. Humans need and crave meat like other carnivores. Where that meat comes from is put into question. I bring up Bojack a lot when it comes to this subject but the truth is that what they did in that show and honestly what Housepets does too, is that there have to be animals raised for slaughter even if they have the capability to be intelligent. Because in the end the problems that come from simply banning all meat consumption is vastly are way bigger than the moral cost of simply designating animals to be raised for slaughter. When you have animals being murdered or randomly attacked and eaten not to mention all the other crime, that is worse than setting aside a line of animals for the sole purpose of being eaten. At the end of the day, animals will be eaten so it is better to regulate it and have control then let it get out of hand.

[Amazee Dayzee]

If only someone could come up with something that was like meat but it wasn't actually meat for animals to eat if everybody was human. Something that tastes like meat and you wouldn't know it was meat. Not talking about tofu which I have heard tastes horrible.

[OdedZeituni98]

I wish I could pet that wolf

[Argent]

That is the problem. You can't put moral and social values over nature.

Turns out you can. It's called civilization.

[NHWestoN]

I'm rather surprised that there hasn't been at least one recurring bird character in the strip (parrot, crow,) except for the long-absent Trinket, Corey's partner in crime.

What Chicken?

Well, true, sorta … the character is/was kind of a one-joke gag (sorta like the Evil Monkey in Chris's closet in Family Guy, appeared maybe two or three times, and hasn't been seen in a long time.

[Amazee Dayzee]

Not even the Evil Monkey anymore as in one of the recent seasons they fleshed him out so maybe we could see What Chicken be fleshed out also.