Untold Stories

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NHWestoN
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by NHWestoN »

A character has a near-death experience much like Keene did when his limo went into the briney, leading to a contest between Cerberus and Eudoant with the soul as prize.

This motif could be an intriguing way to present back-stories about someone like Maxwell, Tiger, Rex, Yeltsin, or even Bino as the two argue their case. Other characters might be drawn in for testimonies, perhaps through dreams or conjures.

As an Infernal, Eudoant might propose a wager or try to "buy" the soul who later tries to void the contract by performing some stunt or quest included as an "escape clause". The dino-imp might return to mess with the imperiled soul or, on the other hand, try to help out and wreck Eudoant's plot.

....and, of course, Kitsune lurks just off panel.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Ralph »

Mungo when he was in the SWAT team.

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Gael
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Gael »

...I wanna know what Joey Fido and Bino's past was like before they were adopted, or perhaps Joey and Fido attempting brotherly bonding...I only say this because I noticed how little we see the three of them together
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Douglas Collier »

How fox Dragon and Pete remember their old lives, despite Kitsune saying they wouldn’t remember.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Obbl »

rickgriffin wrote:
Ryusuta wrote:Wait... I don't get it, dood. Dragon and Pete weren't supposed to remember who they are.
Kitsune's words weren't about their memories of demigods at all, he doesn't bring it up at all in that panel. He's talking about specifically how long they have to live. That's to close a loophole of them knowing the exact length of their sentence and so basically ignore their own mortality.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Douglas Collier »

Ah, got it.

Next thing we know, they’ll end up teaming up with Celia to find the Egyptian temple.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Champion Wallace »

I was serious about my first suggestion. I'm in the camp that that arc had the potential for some really good jokes. One thing I noticed fans fixated on in the old comments is Sasha was going to go walkies with King but was never shown doing so.Image
Is this collection of untold stories for a future arc in regular Housepets! fashion or is going to be for something separate from and in addition to the three comics a week like All the King’s Men or the the three Housepets through the ages stories (7500 BC, ancient Egypt, and American nomad). Ya know, the reason why Sabrina can address the readers in the American nomad story fits the description of stories you've implied but never told.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by NHWestoN »

Well, we know King and Sasha are pals, he and Daisy have had the occasional meeting, and as for Tarot ....
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Douglas Collier »

Draig and Craig trying to get back at their former avatars, but then being thrown a curveball when they meet their soulmates (courtesy of Kitsune), and have to choose which they will pursue.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Sansash »

Oh oh oh! What about Peanut and Dragon's one date? Unless we did actually see it, but it seems like whenever Tarot and Peanut spent time together, Dragon ever only briefly interacted with Peanut. I have always wondered if their Halloween broomstick ride was their date, but maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by NHWestoN »

... and, of course, Maxwell spent time in Dragon's bedroom ;)
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by fenrirblack »

Here's everything I NEED TO KNOW:

I need to know about Joel's childhood. There are so many references to how he grew up and his life before his introduction. He comments how he represses feelings and Bahamut mentioned the horrible things he did. How was he arrested the first time? His college years? His kidnapping? The comment about getting computer and his "old habits" was sketchy. What were his parents REALLY like because everyone assumes they were horrid people and I keep referencing them as monsters but we don't know what they were REALLY like. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD what is his age? Is he the same age as a dog as he was human? We know he has to be in his thirties by now but I GOTS TO KNOW.

Again, King is still the most dynamic character because he has such a dramatic/interesting backstory but it is going to waste because he know so little about his life. IF nothing else we need his FATHER to show up. OMG I could totally see him coming to Bill's house and not know King is his son then later finding out and then leading to a hallmark moment.
Think about King opening the door and going like "Dad?!" Then Mr. Robinson giving him this quizzical look and King backtracking. Then we go into flashbacks about King's life leading to this reunion. King has to come to terms with his estranged relationship and we all learn a valuable lesson about life. I would just explode if his father appeared in the comics at least once.

Speaking of which was what that "bet" Joel's mom made? We never got an explanation about that either. The alt-text leads to more questions which just leads to more unanswered questions. Like how did she end up in heaven? How did she die? Was Joel affected by it in any way? What kind of relationship did they have?

King says “I can explain. Since you didn’t love me enough as a child I made terrible life choices which in turn caused my life to be twisted into a cosmic joke by a sociopathic demigod. You were terrible parents and now I have emotional scars that never healed. I never learned to deal with my emotions or my traumatic childhood. But I found some happiness only to once again be robbed of it once again. I vow to be a better parent and a better person than you or Dad ever were to me. That is why, Mother, I am now a corgi.
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Bandit1990
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Bandit1990 »

I would like more info on the K9 dog with the eye-patch.

(And potentially the rest of the background k9 dogs as well.)
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by fenrirblack »

It's gone now.
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Bandit1990
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Bandit1990 »

fenrirblack wrote:When did Max find out about King one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... 1/mad-max/
I have a theoretical answer to that one. Peanut saw Joel as a human in Heaven is Not Enough. He doesn't really say anything at the time, but he is already read in on the celestial game, and is definitely smart enough to make the connection on his own. Then he could have told Grape, who would have told Max.

OR Max just knows that King was involved in the whole celestial Magic(k)® thing before and is throwing out his name as someone who would be better suited to tagging along with this jaunt.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by fenrirblack »

Bandit1990 wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:When did Max find out about King one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... 1/mad-max/
I have a theoretical answer to that one. Peanut saw Joel as a human in Heaven is Not Enough. He doesn't really say anything at the time, but he is already read in on the celestial game, and is definitely smart enough to make the connection on his own. Then he could have told Grape, who would have told Max.

OR Max just knows that King was involved in the whole celestial Magic(k)® thing before and is throwing out his name as someone who would be better suited to tagging along with this jaunt.
That was my thought but I need undeniable evidence that proves that. Something in writing that says "this is what really happened, so stop asking."
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Obbl
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Obbl »

A lot of your questions already have answers given in the comic itself, but really, why would you want to be spoon-fed all these superficial points? Max knows King's already involved because it's not hard to assume that he would know.
Rick has never been in the habit of spelling out every detail if it can readily be assumed, because "down that way lies madness." It creates an impossible situation for Rick if the audience can't make some logical jumps and be satisfied that things probably occurred roughly as they imagine them: especially over points that are not important for the story one way or the other (e.g. the exact way that Max learned about King's involvement). Even if these points might be interesting to see at some point, we don't need them.
Please don't make Rick's life super difficult by demanding tiny details be spelled out.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Champion Wallace »

I, for one, applaud this list. The original request was "for suggestions on stories I've implied happened in the comic but never told" and I think this fits that the best (better then seconding other suggestions of bringing up questions raised in the latest strip). The untold part doesn't have to be the focus of the story. It's possible Rick is inspired to write a story where King is stuck with Max and needs to act like how Max thinks a dog acts and talking about the cosmic game is only a side thing. Howl, the "meaningful thing" Sasha did wasn't until the last strip of the arc when she reasserted her position in her relationship with Bino. In all, for a request like this I think more options is better than fewer.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Obbl »

To clarify, I don't have a problem with the list itself. It's a list of questions big and small that they want answered. My personal opinion about whether or not any one of those questions really belongs here doesn't matter, cause Rick will scroll through this thread at his leisure and select questions that strike his fancy. Which is why I didn't respond after that post.
I responded after the post that clarified the author's reason for asking (one of the questions). We've seen the "I cannot be satisfied until Rick himself explains every detail that I feel has not been adequately explained" person on this forum before. It is that belief that I wish to challenge. It is an expectation of Rick to do the impossible, and I would much prefer we not see that here again.
So carry on asking questions. Ask obvious questions. Ask mundane questions. Ask perfectly absurd and maybe even some inane questions. But if Rick decides not to answer your question or clarify something for you, then you must be satisfied to fill in the blanks on your own or accept the explanations of others as close enough.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by fenrirblack »

You have not known suffering until you have sat through a three hour workshop listening to a group of grad students argue about an "author's intent." Or had a group of undergrad students ask you a bunch of ridiculous questions/get all the facts wrong about a story you wrote then immediately complain when you put the explanation and information in the story because "they were supposed to figure it out for themselves." Or when you ask your writing professor what you are supposed to do when you come across this paradox and never get a real answer.

Have I mentioned that I'm obsessed with backstory.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by NHWestoN »

"Whatever things an artist owes the public, an explanation is not one of them."

My attitude has always been that it's Rick's world, and I'm basically a guest. Sure, I've participated happily in the invitations to offer story suggestions...usually by saying I'd like to see a certain character developed more (Daisy); a particular pairing explored further (Max and Sabrina; Fox and Fido); or a backstory explored (Grape's life before the shelter; Sasha and her "Daddy"). I'm not barking at any who want more and maybe just a lack of imagination on my part, but there are threads sometimes that contribute to the saga by going unanswered. Reagrds.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by SuperStar »

Some of these I'm answering and some are my own questions cause I am confused.
fenrirblack wrote:the Mungo one(s) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... your-milk/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... l-apart-2/ (What question about Mungo is raised in these.)
The most annoyingly complicated ridiculous OH MY DOG I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND ones https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -lifetime/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... sundering/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -you-know/ (There's no real questions here, they explain everything you need to know.)
Another King one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -thoughts/ (What question?)
Another another King One https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... of-a-time/ (What question/looseend is raised?)
The nerd's one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ue-and-eh/ (What question/looseend about the nerds is raised in this strip?)
The "Please stop making this more complicated" one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ng-conned/ What looseend and/or question?)
The "Why is King so lovey dovey mushy all the time, did he not get enough love as a child" one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... og-vendor/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -the-king/ (your question isn't even hinted at in the strips provided)
The "Can someone explain this to me? one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ermission/ (Just answering this one. He's talking about furries.
The "What kind of obedience school did they go to?" one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... powers-go/ That's a classic throwaway gag, you aren't meant to get clarification.
Spot and Pridelands needs to be expanded on one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ackground/ (How exactly does this need to be expanded?)
Maybe the last King one, probably not. Anyway King's backstory again one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... e-it-baby/ (This is about his past work with PETA
The "Charming Young woman," please. Get over yourself. King's name is based on chess so Hmmm Hmm one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ole-truth/ (What do you even mean???)
The Tiger's mental problems and seriously needs therapy one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... the-brain/ (As Rick Griffin has said since the beginning: "Because mental issues are funny", it's for comedy.
I just really like this one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... one-scene/ (There are no questions raised from this that haven't been answered.
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Zack_the_husky »

If we go by certain mythological rules regarding godhood, how did Pete ever even ascend to Demigod status, considering the fact that he's *Pete*?
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by fenrirblack »

SuperStar wrote:Some of these I'm answering and some are my own questions cause I am confused.
fenrirblack wrote:the Mungo one(s) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... your-milk/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... l-apart-2/ (What question about Mungo is raised in these.)
The most annoyingly complicated ridiculous OH MY DOG I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND ones https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -lifetime/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... sundering/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -you-know/ (There's no real questions here, they explain everything you need to know.)
Another King one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -thoughts/ (What question?)
Another another King One https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... of-a-time/ (What question/looseend is raised?)
The nerd's one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ue-and-eh/ (What question/looseend about the nerds is raised in this strip?)
The "Please stop making this more complicated" one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ng-conned/ What looseend and/or question?)
The "Why is King so lovey dovey mushy all the time, did he not get enough love as a child" one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... og-vendor/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -the-king/ (your question isn't even hinted at in the strips provided)
The "Can someone explain this to me? one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ermission/ (Just answering this one. He's talking about furries. That joke went right over my head.
The "What kind of obedience school did they go to?" one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... powers-go/ That's a classic throwaway gag, you aren't meant to get clarification.
Spot and Pridelands needs to be expanded on one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ackground/ (How exactly does this need to be expanded?)
Maybe the last King one, probably not. Anyway King's backstory again one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... e-it-baby/ (This is about his past work with PETA
The "Charming Young woman," please. Get over yourself. King's name is based on chess so Hmmm Hmm one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ole-truth/ (What do you even mean???)
The Tiger's mental problems and seriously needs therapy one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... the-brain/ (As Rick Griffin has said since the beginning: "Because mental issues are funny", it's for comedy.
I just really like this one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... one-scene/ (There are no questions raised from this that haven't been answered.
Okay, okay, okay. It seems my list has caused some issues and problems with people I apologize. The list was an attempt at actual questions/humor/curiosity. Apparently I'm still learning how to use forums.

the Mungo one(s) (What is his relationship with Satau since it was mentioned in the comics. I'm sure we will get it down the road but others were asking.)
Those weren't even the right links originally! *face palms

The most annoyingly complicated ridiculous OH MY DOG I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND ones (The explanation given went right over my head. I just need anyone to explain it to me in clearer manner.)

Another King one (Question about his backstory and his own emotional trauma that seems to fester within him. He says "Just do what you always do and bury this somewhere deep down," what else has he had to bury over the years?

Another another King One (Question about King's past deeds besides his work with Peta? What else has he done?)

The nerd's one (Just mentioning the idea that the nerds have never had a real story. They are underdeveloped. By this point I was copying some of the other posts already made by other users.)

The "Please stop making this more complicated" one (What is the "space between spaces?)

The "Why is King so lovey dovey mushy all the time, did he not get enough love as a child" one (Question again about his backstory and childhood?)

The "Can someone explain this to me? one (Just answering this one. He's talking about furries.) Wait. That...that still doesn't make sense. What about furries? That joke went right over my head.

The "What kind of obedience school did they go to?" one (That's a classic throwaway gag, you aren't meant to get clarification.) (My comment was a throw away gag. Again attempt at humor.)

Spot and Pridelands needs to be expanded on one (Just saying that maybe down the road we get an actual story. By this point I was just throwing away comments.)

Maybe the last King one, probably not. Anyway King's backstory again one (This is about his past work with PETA)

The "Charming Young woman," please. Get over yourself. King's name is based on chess so Hmmm Hmm one (This is a question about Dragon's comment about chess and how despite King's name and tag we never really get any chess references in the story. Not my best point but it bothered me.)

The Tiger's mental problems and seriously needs therapy one (As Rick Griffin has said since the beginning: "Because mental issues are funny", it's for comedy. (Mental illness are not funny. I have one that distorts my perception of reality.)

I just really like this one (I really did just like that one. Although I am curious about what was going on through Fox's head. That I will have to imagine for myself.)

Sorry if the list upset everyone. I will never try to be funny again. In my mind they seemed so obvious. Well, they also seemed funny at the time. Oops.
For the record, I was also trying to consolidate the other posts mentioned already for convenience.
I don't know what went wrong with the links.

P.S. This is why I don't talk to people. https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... not-again/
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by Obbl »

Like many things in life, humor requires practice. We just couldn't tell where the serious questions ended and the humor began :P
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by fenrirblack »

Let me try again.

What is this bet? More importantly what was Joel's and his mother's relationship really like. Some backstory would be appreciated on Joel's childhood/life. Joel's father? Where is he? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... in-heaven/
What is Mungo's relationship with Satau? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ng-bright/
King went to college? Can we know more? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... use-rules/
What does he mean when he say's "Bury this down like you always do?" What else has he hidden from the world? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -thoughts/
The Really needs to be expanded on one https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... nd-humans/
What happened to Max's ear? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... allon-can/
What was Grape's past like? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... lled-milk/
Can we see Jata again, I liked him? Also I'm curious about Sabrina's time in Ferga. https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ygones-be/
What are these misdeeds Bahamut mentioned? ("Evil you yourself have done, the people you have hurt, the irreversible damage you have caused" Whoa, dramatic. I'm starting to think whatever Joel did to get thrown in jail the first time was pretty bad.) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... of-a-time/
Seriously what happened to Joel? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... n-strikes/
Key and Fiddler because people keep asking which one is the boy and which is the girl? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... kill-cafe/
Can someone explain what was going on with the whole "animals equality through divine power but Dragon wasn't cool with it but in the end none of it even mattered anyway? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -glitters/
Res's backstory/can we see his hunky tiger form again? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... mas-cards/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... nsibility/
What is King's story with computers? What are his "old habits"? (Like was he a computer hacker who used his skills to liberate animals from corrupt businesses all vignette style?) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... are-gross/
What was Mungo's time in SWAT like? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... djustment/
Can we develop the nerds some and can they get their own story? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ue-and-eh/
Can we see Joey, Fido, and Bino's childhood relationship? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... cred-duty/
What is the "space between spaces"? (I have my theories concerning the nine realms of Yggdrasil but I need clarification.) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ng-conned/
What and where and why? (Is this really Nine Realms Yggdrasil because that is what I went with in my fan fiction?) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -actually/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... and-earth/
Other realms? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... s-variety/
Why is King so lovey dovey mushy all the time, did he not get enough love as a child? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... og-vendor/ & https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -the-king/
Fight archdemons" really? When is that happening? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -lifetime/
What kind of obedience school did they go to? (Comedy or not I'm asking anyway.) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... powers-go/
Can we please see Jill do this? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -on-earth/
One human is having kids so is anyone else going to? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... re-coming/
Max's days in the pound? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... dogs-name/
Is Bill ever going to find out about King? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... good-will/
What other childhood issues does King have and will we ever know? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... hed-socks/
What happened between Fox and Max? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... llar-door/
When did Max find out about King? (Yes I know but I'm asking anyway) https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... 1/mad-max/
King's backstory again? What does Pete mean about King willing to destroy lives? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... e-it-baby/
Where did King pick up these skills? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... the-woods/
Why did Joel go to prison before and what does he mean when he says he has no where to go? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -mixed-up/

Lastly How old is King or at least how old was Joel when he first appeared? I've heard everything from early twenties to 29 so which is it? (I know I shouldn't care about it since it's like 24-29 and not relevant but it has become an obsession of mine. A five year window is not a big deal.)
Last edited by fenrirblack on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Untold Stories

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Welcome back, Rick ...
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Re: Untold Stories

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Really again? Again with the vague King moments of “hee he hee King had this happen to him but I’m not telling.”

So add this to the list.
What was Joel like at eighteen and what kind of drifting did he do because this puts the college thing into question? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... th-humans/
Last edited by fenrirblack on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Untold Stories

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Well, Daryl was with them when Pete tried to blackmail Joel back in Australia, where his transformation was fully visible to a lot of people.
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Re: Untold Stories

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Given all the fascination with King, suppose the cat and one or both of the dogs he lived with as Joel suddenly show up in Babylon Gardens?

… and have we ever learned what Pete meant when he said "Sasha is protected"? ...and what DID happen to Fox's squeaky toy which played such a pivotal role in his initial bonding with King?
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Re: Untold Stories

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Thought I was the only one hung up on the squeaky toy lol
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Re: Untold Stories

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The cosmos may pivot on the preservation of Fox's squeaky bone....



Or not.
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Re: Untold Stories

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ANOTHER THING I WANTED TO ADD!

... Stories of why Max feels so insecure =(
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Re: Untold Stories

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… might have some connection to that chunk of ear he's missing.
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Re: Untold Stories

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GameCobra wrote:ANOTHER THING I WANTED TO ADD!

... Stories of why Max feels so insecure =(
I think Sabrina really messed him up. Which I guess would be an interesting story. Add that to the anthology.
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Re: Untold Stories

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How Fido met Sabrina
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Re: Untold Stories

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Sasha's unwavering devotion to her callous "Daddy"...
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Re: Untold Stories

Post by snowykat »

rickgriffin wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 5:58 pm Since in the current comic I'm teasing something I didn't think I was gonna tell but now might, I want to ask the forums for suggestions on stories I've implied happened in the comic but never told.

For instance, I am formulating a story about Breel's old life in the nineteenth century.

I might gather up some suggestions and make them into a poll!
so did we ever get a story on Breel's old 19th century life or is it coming in the future or is it hidden "between the lines" of the comic.
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Re: Untold Stories

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anhedral wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 3:01 am I keep going back to that big reveal about Daisy and Sasha in 'K9PD'.

There is so much sadness contained in Daisy's statement here, and in the strip that follows. If I'm reading it right, some pets are pretending to be less intelligent than they really are, just to fit in with what society expects. That's a potent brew. I'd love to see more of the 'real' Daisy and Sasha – how they behave when they don't need to keep up that front. Daisy especially.

Or perhaps Lana will have more luck with the Equal Chance Program than Keene ever did, and the issue will resolve itself that way.
Have to agree emphatically with you, anhedral. I had real hopes for some further development of the Sasha-Daisy duo. There are a lot of excellent and inspired suggestions in this thread. Conversely, there are a number of characters and pairings who could use a few years off (but I'm not so sour as to name them - guest in Rick's World, etc).
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