Internet Censorship?

Post by **Dissension** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:50 pm

angelusbr wrote:Really? it takes years for them to come to the conclusion people used megaupload for sharing copyrighted stuff?

There is a difference between knowing someone is breaking the law and having sufficient evidence to obtain arrest warrants or injunctions from a judge to shut down Web sites. Many prosecutors will not take a case to court without overwhelming evidence.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:28 pm

I see. But, this still shocks me. I mean soemthing that is well kknown by everyone was only "proved" now.
maybe they just arrested them for not doing anything to stop the piracy.

ReCreate · Post by **ReCreate** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:20 pm

Now, To target and take down the other 849302843290849305 websites that do exactly this. :B

kurowolfe · Post by **kurowolfe** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:48 pm

I'm keeping a close look at the SOPA and PIPA thing, which unfortunately would affect the rest of the world too if they were to be implemented. Heck, I'm even following all the news and happenings in the US, for the same reason.

*crosses fingers, knocking on wood and all that stuff*

The Grey Wolverine · Post by **The Grey Wolverine** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:52 pm

See, its laws like this and gun control that make me want to move to Switzerland.

FlintTheSquirrel · Post by **FlintTheSquirrel** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:54 pm

That second one I strongly support I think, at least it sounds good, but that is not the topic I guess.
I still do not fully understand this bill, but I know that a lot of people are stating only the worst of it, so even if it comes into fruition, I dun think it will do all the things people say it will.

CaptainPea · Post by **CaptainPea** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:00 am

Guys, we're giving leeway with the discussion of politics in this thread, don't abuse it. Politics not immediately related to the SOPA and PIPA bills is still off the table.

And yes, websites that don't (or maybe physically can't) effectively police copyright violations internally are a major target of the legislation, at least how I understand it.

Tiggy · Post by **Tiggy** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:10 am

The latest.

44R0NM10 · Post by **44R0NM10** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:22 am

...this entire thing is so stupid. It's all so deceitful.

ReCreate · Post by **ReCreate** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:42 am

WE JUST DESTROYED SOPA/PIPA, CANT WE HAVE 5 MINUTES OFF.

Sorry, I had to. xP

Anyways, Who's with me for buying an island?!

Penwrite · Post by **Penwrite** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:46 am

Tiggy wrote:The latest.

...I'm reminded the tv trope that evil only has to win once. *gives a weary sigh* Well, once more into the breath, I suppose.

legendario13 · Post by **legendario13** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:09 pm

all this SOPA ACTA etc.
are a really bad idea. this are the situations when you can say whitout fear to mistake. You are about to fail!

they are going to fu.. fruit up all the internet, and even further. music, maybe tv, tecnology, etc.

Post by **Sleet** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:09 pm

That video reeks of pro-piracy bias to me, but I won't deny that ACTA is scary.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:00 pm

Sleet wrote:That video reeks of pro-piracy bias to me, but I won't deny that ACTA is scary.

Most of the anti-sopa movements I've seen so far are pro-piracy.

Post by **Sleet** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:29 pm

Which is a darn shame, because it only gets more anti-piracy people (and lawmakers) to back SOPA and friends.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:42 pm

Sleet wrote:Which is a darn shame, because it only gets more anti-piracy people (and lawmakers) to back SOPA and friends.

All the politician have to say is "people want us to legalize a crime! We shall not do it!"
And, in the end, who'll be able to say the politicians are wrong...Instead of comming up with a smart way to destroy sopa, many people are giing them fuel without even noticing...

Post by **Dissension** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:17 pm

I think it's pretty clear that I'm a supporter of strong copyright infringement laws. That a lot of the anti-SOPA/PIPA sentiment was coming from parties positively inclined toward "piracy" did color my views.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:25 pm

I agree that piracy should remain illegal, but the proposed laws are too strong, or strong in the wrong ways.
and as many point out, the pirates will find ways around them while those who follow the law will be hurt by them.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:26 pm

I've seen an image, which I can't find rright now, which said:
"if they ban all sharing websites, we'll use torrent. If they ban torrent, we'll trade flash/pendrives. if they ban flashdrives as well, we'll trade computers."

This was weird beyond comparison.

ReCreate · Post by **ReCreate** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:48 pm

angelusbr wrote:I've seen an image, which I can't find rright now, which said:
"if they ban all sharing websites, we'll use torrent. If they ban torrent, we'll trade flash/pendrives. if they ban flashdrives as well, we'll trade computers."

This was weird beyond comparison.

Thing is, you can't ban all sharing websites, or torrents entirely, without essentially banning all of the internet. it just doesn't work like that.

Penwrite · Post by **Penwrite** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:39 pm

The sad thing is, arguments against SOPA and its ilk don't even have to be pro-piracy. There are plenty of legal reasons it's crazy.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:50 pm

Penwrite wrote:The sad thing is, arguments against SOPA and its ilk don't even have to be pro-piracy. There are plenty of legal reasons it's crazy.

Yes. For example, SOPA would destroy all forms of fanart and fanfiction. that is not piracy and these things are what makes the fandom so great.

edit:
Okay, NOW I'm scared.

*scrubbed*

Mod Edit: Watch the language on images you post.

Ebly · Post by **Ebly** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:04 am

Personally I think that if you guys want to say what SOPA and PIPA would and would not do, you should actually attempt to read the proposed legislation itself. The reason many laws over there appear so terrible is because people who are against the bills interpret them and then summarise them to an audience, which in turn interprets it and reiterates it in different ways to different people who in turn interpret and reiterate differently. The veil that is perception and interpretation really screws with this stuff.

I mean, SOPA and PIPA are definitely bad law, it's just that you should know that it's impossible for these laws to actually destroy all forms of fanart and fanfiction. Without even having to read the law, you can know that, because fanart and fanfiction aren't online-exclusive phenomena! Saying the laws would do such a thing is hyperbolic and untruthful.

Tiggy wrote:The latest.

Just so you all know ACTA is only "the latest" in terms of people making noise about it, in reality it's been around since 2008. Additionally, it's a plurilateral UN agreement. Many nations have already signed it (the UK is pretty much the only English-speaking nation that hasn't signed - that's right, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ have all signed). I'm seriously wondering what anyone thinks the noise is going to achieve. You can't just vote the UN diplomats out of office or something.

Post by **Dissension** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:19 am

Indeed, ACTA is fairly old news.

IceKitsune · Post by **IceKitsune** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:25 am

Ebly wrote:

I mean, SOPA and PIPA are definitely bad law, it's just that you should know that it's impossible for these laws to actually destroy all forms of fanart and fanfiction. Without even having to read the law, you can know that, because fanart and fanfiction aren't online-exclusive phenomena! Saying the laws would do such a thing is hyperbolic and untruthful.

Ebly under US law and most other copyright law Fanart and Fanfiction is already illegal they can actually shut down stuff like that (and some already do, ie Anne Rice, has threatened to sue anyone who does it. Its why Fanfiction.net doesn't have fanfiction of her work on it.) heck fanziens were threatened to be sued back in the 80s as well a lot of the time. Its just that this would make it easier for them to get rid of it since now you wouldn't know who had it taken down and they don't have to take you to court. So yes it would most likey destroy all fanart and fanfiction. Most companies don't do it now because of the bad PR it would bring.

Ebly · Post by **Ebly** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:42 am

IceKitsune wrote:
Ebly wrote:I mean, SOPA and PIPA are definitely bad law, it's just that you should know that it's impossible for these laws to actually destroy all forms of fanart and fanfiction. Without even having to read the law, you can know that, because fanart and fanfiction aren't online-exclusive phenomena! Saying the laws would do such a thing is hyperbolic and untruthful.
Ebly under US law and most other copyright law Fanart and Fanfiction is already illegal they can actually shut down stuff like that (and some already do, ie Anne Rice, has threatened to sue anyone who does it. Its why Fanfiction.net doesn't have fanfiction of her work on it.) heck fanziens were threatened to be sued back in the 80s as well a lot of the time. Its just that this would make it easier for them to get rid of it since now you wouldn't know who had it taken down and they don't have to take you to court. So yes it would most likey destroy all fanart and fanfiction. Most companies don't do it now because of the bad PR it would bring.

Okay, so where are the actual lawsuits? The ones that were actually taken to court, won by the original copyright holder, and not subsequently quashed in appeal? Where is the explicit law that supports what you're saying? I don't mean to be standoffish, but I really want the full picture to be represented here. It's very important to me to have as much information presented as practical, which is why I wrote this post. That is, I don't mean to belittle you personally or make you seem uninformed. You just happened to provoke this.

Here, have two links from me: The first and the second.

Now before I get into this I'm going to say that this is my personal interpretation of the laws as they are written, and that in reality these are all decided on a case-by-case basis, as presented to the courts by the actual parties involved. It is impossible for me to predict how fan art and fan fiction would actually be viewed by the court of law in any future cases.

Okay, so, back to law stuff:
You'll notice that the law protects the copyrighted works themselves (for example, it is the exclusive right of Rick to create copies of any of the Housepets strips) and the right to produce derivative works. It protects some other things too (all related directly and exclusively to the works that have been copyrighted). The contentious issue in law is whether "fan art" material counts as being a derivative work or not (defined here). This is difficult, because the point of the definition, as I understand it, hinges on the work being "recast, transformed, or adapted". Fan art materials, from my personal interpretation, do not 'recast' the original work, do not adapt the original work (as compared to, for example, Romeo + Juliet with Leonardo DiCaprio), and only potentially 'transform' the original work.
If a fan work can be considered derivative work, then it is indeed breaking copyright law (albeit on the extremely minor end of the spectrum if it's just something someone did for fun and put up noncommercially). If it is not considered to be derivative work, then it is not, because otherwise there is no actual explicit mention of fan works in the law. If the law does not mention it, it is not illegal. Simple.

Additionally, there are all kinds of protections under "fair use". Even if a fan work is determined (which you will note, of course, is done on a case-by-case basis) to be a derivative work, it then has potential protections in fair use (again, decided on a case-by-case basis). Perhaps it could be considered as being fair use due to being 'criticism' or 'comment' - most people would know of the US courts having a very wide interpretation of what entails 'parody', and I find it likely, as an example, that the many pony image macros on the internet (as an example) would be protected as being parody works, especially considering their noncommercial nature. If you tried to sell image macros, however, I am certain it would be a very different story.

And hey, all that aside, assuming you were 100% right and fanart and fanfiction are already all illegal no matter what with no judicial interpretation at all, then that would still support my point that SOPA and PIPA would not 'destroy all forms of fanart and fanfiction', because they're already illegal regardless of said laws.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:15 am

Okay, i had to re-read that image twice to see what was above pg-13. I really got carried away with what the image said..
I'll summarize it then:
when they closed down Megaupload they now have access to the data of everyone who ever uploaded or downloaded a video using megaupload and now they can sue all the users, send them to jail to use the users in a macabre scheme of slavery work.

Ebly · Post by **Ebly** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:25 am

angelusbr wrote:send them to jail to use the users in a macabre scheme of slavery work.

i want to smack anyone who is either so gullible or so much of a conspiracy theorist that they would make that claim

yes of course they have access to all the data, because they need it as evidence for the appropriate criminal charges

how would it be fair for the police not to be able to access the data, and yet the owners of megaupload may?

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:11 am

Ebly wrote:
angelusbr wrote:send them to jail to use the users in a macabre scheme of slavery work.
i want to smack anyone who is either so gullible or so much of a conspiracy theorist that they would make that claim

yes of course they have access to all the data, because they need it as evidence for the appropriate criminal charges

how would it be fair for the police not to be able to access the data, and yet the owners of megaupload may?

You're right about the slavery work thing. But I think the megaupload users might have to face trials and possible go to jail and pay absurd amounts of indenization (that is not is not overreacting. Don't get me wrong, but US is famous for making people make ridiculous amounts of money over petty things).
edit: before you ppoint it out. What I say is, instead of charging 15 THOUSAND dollars for a song (which did happen before), how about charging the double of the song's actual price? Nobody pays thousands of dollars for a CD. 50 dollars at best, they should check the price of the CD which had the song, divide the price by the number of musics in it, then double the result and make the person pay for it. So simple and so efficient. But no.
Lawsuit industry in US is downright abusive.

Ebly · Post by **Ebly** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:29 am

angelusbr wrote:
Ebly wrote:
angelusbr wrote:send them to jail to use the users in a macabre scheme of slavery work.
i want to smack anyone who is either so gullible or so much of a conspiracy theorist that they would make that claim

yes of course they have access to all the data, because they need it as evidence for the appropriate criminal charges

how would it be fair for the police not to be able to access the data, and yet the owners of megaupload may?
You're right about the slavery work thing. But I think the megaupload users might have to face trials and possible go to jail and pay absurd amounts of indenization (that is not is not overreacting. Don't get me wrong, but US is famous for making people make ridiculous amounts of money over petty things).
edit: before you ppoint it out. What I say is, instead of charging 15 THOUSAND dollars for a song (which did happen before), how about charging the double of the song's actual price? Nobody pays thousands of dollars for a CD. 50 dollars at best, they should check the price of the CD which had the song, divide the price by the number of musics in it, then double the result and make the person pay for it. So simple and so efficient. But no.
Lawsuit industry in US is downright abusive.

it's extremely unlikely that, in practise, that would ever happen. i'm not going to go looking up precedent in US courts now, but jail is an extremely high-end punishment. downloading a couple of albums will not land you in jail. sharing a couple of albums will not land you in jail, either. when was the last time you heard of someone ending up in jail for merely uploading and downloading copyrighted material?

furthermore, did they charge 15k for one download of the song? for personal use? i really doubt that. if you can get me a link to an article about it or the actual court case, i'll believe you.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:41 am

The source of the 15 thousand was wrong. It was 1.5 million, actually. I checked the case and what actually happened was this:
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/19 ... -per-song/

I admit I didn't read SOPA myself, but isn't this law saying that downloading a song CAN send you to jail up to 5 years?

Ebly · Post by **Ebly** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:04 am

angelusbr wrote:The source of the 15 thousand was wrong. It was 1.5 million, actually. I checked the case and what actually happened was this:
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/19 ... -per-song/

I admit I didn't read SOPA myself, but isn't this law saying that downloading a song CAN send you to jail up to 5 years?

And here is what Wikipedia has to say about it

it seems that it's actually a very complicated case with a whole load of crap from the juries, not just the record industries. the trials keep awarding in the industry's favour, but the judges keep reducing it. pretty funny. anyway, it seems the main reason it keeps being so much is because she broke the distribution part. if you download a song but only keep it on your computer, you're not going to be paying millions of dollars. but if you make available a song and a million people download it, even at 99c a song, that's almost a million dollars worth there. i definitely believe what happened with her was wrong and manifestly excessive in every way, but i can at least understand how it happened, absurd as it is.

anyway, you should be very wary of the word "can". can does not mean will. you can be convicted of treason in australia, yet it's never happened. if someone was given a jail sentence for downloading and even sharing copyrighted material, you can be guaranteed they'll appeal that sentence for being unreasonably high!

additionally, another major point: that is a civil case. it is between two legal entities, not a legal entity and the state. there is a huge, huge difference. for one thing: you do not have to prove your case beyond reasonable doubt, merely on the balance of what is more likely to be true. additionally, jail is never an option in a civil case. she is not a criminal. finally, because it's between two legal entities rather than the state and a legal entity, the police do not prosecute or even look for such cases. it's not their role - they're employed by the state. their role is to enforce public law.

Penwrite · Post by **Penwrite** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:17 am

Okay, okay people, let's all remain friendly here. How about this. SOPA and stuff like it won't destroy fan fiction and fan works, just make it harder to share that stuff with others. Is this something we can all agree on?

Ebly · Post by **Ebly** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:23 am

it, uh, was a while since that was the actual subject, and half the time in my past few posts here i wasn't even disagreeing. the decision on jammie's case was insane and is still going through court drama. she really was told to pay more than a million dollars two times. the police do have access to all of megaupload's data. copyright law is in fact vague enough that it can be interpreted that fan art and fan fiction is copyright infringement. these are all true. i was just attempting to paint... not even a better picture, just more of a picture. to give links to actual copyright law as it presently stands; give another link, albeit to wikipedia, so people can have a better idea of everything regarding thomas-rasset's case. i'm trying to help people find out more, not be unfriendly... if attempting to be informative is being unfriendly then i would rather be informative than friendly.

here, have a gift instead:
text of SOPA when it was introduced
text of PIPA when it was introduced

i ought to read over these sometime, but for now, it's 3 in the morning and i really need to call canada about university. whoop!

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:17 pm

Penwrite wrote:Okay, okay people, let's all remain friendly here. How about this. SOPA and stuff like it won't destroy fan fiction and fan works, just make it harder to share that stuff with others. Is this something we can all agree on?

I don't think he was being unfriendly. the thing is the subject matter is really compleicated and heated.

Ebly · Post by **Ebly** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:23 pm

angelusbr wrote:
Penwrite wrote:Okay, okay people, let's all remain friendly here. How about this. SOPA and stuff like it won't destroy fan fiction and fan works, just make it harder to share that stuff with others. Is this something we can all agree on?
I don't think he was being unfriendly. the thing is the subject matter is really compleicated and heated.

Thanks! Yeah, it's a real cluster... mess.

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:14 am

check this out
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videol ... -downloads

Tattorack · Post by **Tattorack** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:49 am

And they have been doing it in secret since 2006!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Count ... _Agreement
http://www.stopacta.info/
Like; imagine what you say and send to each other on Skype is cencored?
Not only that, the entire Linux community would have to shut down.
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/eu_save_the ... et_spread/

Penwrite · Post by **Penwrite** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:08 pm

Well, I just found something incredibly horrific out about ACTA. Apparently it will make no distinction between counterfeit medicine and generic medicine. This is horrific because most third-world countries suffering from stuff like AIDS and other terrible diseases rely on the cheaper generic medicines. ACTA's literally sentencing thousands, tens of thousands to death just because pharmaceutical companies want to make more money.

Kinda makes me feel a bit bad for complaining about my fan fiction...

Post by **Sleet** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:31 pm

That's ridiculous. You can't copyright a chemical...