Housepets!

It's still a valid perspective because there are like, 10 mortals who actually know that Heaven is a thing.

There's also the fact to consider that the eternal bliss of Heaven as presented is ultimately meaningless because it is the nature of all accomplishments, achievements, and acquisitions to be devoid of all meaning if there is no suffering to measure them against.

Ultimately, the true value of all things in life is commensurate with the suffering needed to attain them.

PhycoKrusk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:53 am It's still a valid perspective because there are like, 10 mortals who actually know that Heaven is a thing.

There's also the fact to consider that the eternal bliss of Heaven as presented is ultimately meaningless because it is the nature of all accomplishments, achievements, and acquisitions to be devoid of all meaning if there is no suffering to measure them against.

Ultimately, the true value of all things in life is commensurate with the suffering needed to attain them.

Not really. Heaven, in mainline Protestant theology (which I tend to follow, outside of their views on evolution as I am a follower of theistic evolution) at least, is more akin to a waiting place, a sort of "rest" from the horrors of the world, before God purges all sin from the universe and the souls he's kept are dumped on "The New Earth" where they'll rebuild society, with all of it's associated maintenance and labor, but in a sinless context.


...Then again, I'm not God and scientifically we don't know if there even IS a god so take everything I just spewed out of my mouth (fingers?) with a grain of salt.

Curiously, the alt text is a plot point in "The Good Place"'s finale XD
cuz really, once in heaven what will one do for all eternity?

At last they have a heart to heart;
whilst trapped where none can run.
Getting reasons for all he’s done?
Reconciliation can start.
Steward’s getting his edge back here
- of course he’s talking to ol’ Keene,
a guy who brought up thoughts obscene -
he might be reverting, I fear.
Redemption is the going theme
I wonder if the Cubs are next?
Wouldn’t poor Kix be all perplexed
if Pete returned onto the scene?

Huh, Steward brings up some good points about people wanting to fix the world.

Harry Johnathan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:58 am Not really. Heaven, in mainline Protestant theology (which I tend to follow, outside of their views on evolution as I am a follower of theistic evolution) at least, is more akin to a waiting place, a sort of "rest" from the horrors of the world, before God purges all sin from the universe and the souls he's kept are dumped on "The New Earth" where they'll rebuild society, with all of it's associated maintenance and labor, but in a sinless context.


...Then again, I'm not God and scientifically we don't know if there even IS a god so take everything I just spewed out of my mouth (fingers?) with a grain of salt.

I'm not talking about that Heaven, I'm talking about one we have been presented with in the comic.

Cerberus did explain that everything about the good things are available to mortals in Heaven, including the anticipation of the good thing. If someone wants the thrill of working to gain something, I would imagine that that’s available, too.

SeanWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:13 am Huh, Steward brings up some good points about people wanting to fix the world.

Very much so. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". As demonstrated very literally by Keene in this comic. I think we are finally starting to see Steward in a new light. Remember it was Keene that forced Steward to "renegotiate our agreement" about the temple. Seems that Steward was attempting to be the adult in the room and stopping Keene from mucking about in things that were far too dangerous.

Having said that, Steward got completely unhinged when he got turned into a badger. It was at that point that he was out for revenge. Given how orderly an accountant views the world, I could see how such a personality might snap under those circumstances.

So...does it basically mean Steward wanted to teach Keene that you can't fix suffering, since the reasons for suffering are infinite and thus you can't fix suffering?
I mean he is not wrong, since if pets live on their own they would also have to take care of themself by themself and do things like getting jobs which isn't neccessary if you live with humans, but he could had done it in a different way by for example trying to talk to Keene really about it.
Even if Keene doesn't listen that wouldn't be a big problem either since he isn't the one leading the project anymore.

Cosmacelf wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:41 pm

SeanWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:13 am Huh, Steward brings up some good points about people wanting to fix the world.

Very much so. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". As demonstrated very literally by Keene in this comic. I think we are finally starting to see Steward in a new light. Remember it was Keene that forced Steward to "renegotiate our agreement" about the temple. Seems that Steward was attempting to be the adult in the room and stopping Keene from mucking about in things that were far too dangerous.

Having said that, Steward got completely unhinged when he got turned into a badger. It was at that point that he was out for revenge. Given how orderly an accountant views the world, I could see how such a personality might snap under those circumstances.

Good points.
I can't give Steward any good points with his intentions, since he also went too far with his methods, but at least Keene did learn from his mistakes while Steward did the same even though he could had learned from it.

Ah, right, Trinket it's not with them. Oh, that'll be a long work for her. That question to Steward is legit, Keene, yeah... He was living very well with you ferrets, and he wasn't forced to do your butler. Uhm, I see your point, Steward, but sounds like you were frustrating your life reaching an utopian ideal... Also, you were partner with Thomas' plan against the ferrets and their inheritance. Now you got to know that exists an Heaven that satisfies any good life desire, and it's easier to say so, but, did you know about it when you were an human with such aversion against rich people? Maybe that time is too much, Keene, would be enough when Heaven will await you.

Trinket probably bailed to avoid conversations like this one ... still, I'll miss her. The team may miss having someone with an eye for the "shinneys" and "sparklies".

Stewart probably used the philosophical diversion to dodge giving Keene the real reason for his animosity ... "Because, you little stinker, you just **** me off." Rick's answer was much more amusing.

So basically Steward decided to fight Keene on what he was doing because he was sick of people thinking that they could change the world. Alright that is kind of petty but who knows what goes through Steward's mind.

That might hold true to when Keene was trying to wish everything better, but in general Stewart's been against any and all of Keene's moves to try and improve peoples lives through social programs or whatever, which just seems like a really bad worldview to have. "You shouldn't help people who are suffering because..." honestly I'm still unclear on what comes after the because, it seems like his argument is just you shouldn't stop suffering because of what suffering means?

That is what I got from it also. People need to suffer in order to get through it to the other side. Nobody can make everything better.

So, part of me wants to say that I'm glad we finally get an explanation of Steward... But is that really it? I mean like, I'm not connecting his words to his actions here... Does he just not understand what Henry Milton and his ferret-kids were trying to achieve? Because I'm like 90% sure that they never thought they were going to make the world perfect, just better...

....or is he just angry because they are trying to change the world in the first place?

I'm vaguely reminded of one of the characters in the hard sci-fi story I'm working on right now, who begins the story berating the "mad scientist" character about how she isn't going to create the change she wants in the world... But even in that one, he's not directly fighting her, only arguing.

Then again, Keene turned Steward into a badger and left him to fend for himself. I would understand that as a motivation to hate him, if all he was trying to do was temper down Keene's crazy goals, and Keene turned on him.

To be honest, to me it sounded like he wanted to prove that Keene couldn't fix everything, by trying to ruin the lives of others, his point being you can't stop suffering.

So he caused suffering, himself.




....so, he caused his point, to prove his point?

Maybe Stewart really wanted to be an elephant after all ...

I still wanna know why Steward teamed up with Thomas Milton in the first place to try to steal the Milton fortune. I assume everything came about AFTER he was transformed though if I remember correctly, it wasn't Keene that turned him into a badger. It was Thomas.

ChekeBello wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:34 am Curiously, the alt text is a plot point in "The Good Place"'s finale XD
cuz really, once in heaven what will one do for all eternity?

I was also seeing the parrelels with "The Good Place" in this storyline, and yeah, when you exist for eternity, eventually you're gonna run out of things that interest / excite you. Then what do you do?

I mean, once again just going off of conventional theology here, I thought the point of Heaven wasn't really enjoying the (worldly) things that make YOU happy more than it is just basking in the presence of God?

Amazee Dayzee wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:28 am I still wanna know why Steward teamed up with Thomas Milton in the first place to try to steal the Milton fortune. I assume everything came about AFTER he was transformed though if I remember correctly, it wasn't Keene that turned him into a badger. It was Thomas.

Exactly ... and the moral is "Don't touch something spit out by someone else (even if it is money) !"

Steward didn't really have a choice because Thomas spat it directly into his hand and it changed him. Just like how Lois ended up being changed when Trinket swooped by and tapped her.

Harry Johnathan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:26 am I mean, once again just going off of conventional theology here, I thought the point of Heaven wasn't really enjoying the (worldly) things that make YOU happy more than it is just basking in the presence of God?

And, in keeping with an orthodox perspective, presence in Paradise conveys a radical transformation of the human personality created by ultimate and total fulfilment and contentment, not to mention ecstasy and (as Rick points out) eternal access to free ice cream.

I think that it is both actually that you can enjoy the presence of God and feel his love whenever you need it and you can enjoy yourself. Besides you will also get to meet up with your departed loved ones again.

Amazee Dayzee wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:40 pm I think that it is both actually that you can enjoy the presence of God and feel his love whenever you need it and you can enjoy yourself. Besides you will also get to meet up with your departed loved ones again.

"Expect surprises!" C.S.Lewis.

So I shouldn't be expecting the five people I would meet in Heaven?

Amazee Dayzee wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:38 am So I shouldn't be expecting the five people I would meet in Heaven?

... or, more likely, the five people you never thought you'd run into there (who will profess equal surprise to see you).

That does seem to be true especially since Joel's mother wound up in Heaven. She was abusive and King didn't think she would get in.

I think Steward's view still has some merit even in a situation where Heaven exists and is like it is in Housepets. Because he's talking about while still being mortal and on Earth, so Heaven is rather irrelevant at that point.

That said, I don't really agree with it entirely either. While I DO think "fix the world, fulfill everyone's desires and end all suffering" is an impossible goal, I think "fix the world as best as we can, fulfill desires as best as we can, and end suffering as best as we can" is a good goal. It's a never-ending task, but helping as many people as one can in the time we have in this world doesn't sound bad to me, so long as it's not taken to unhealthy and self-destructive levels - it's also important to help yourself and let others help you, too.

I think the issue Steward saw with Keene which was why he was trying to stop him was him trying to do it SO much that it was getting unhealthy.

I just realized how ridiculous it is that people are getting into philosophical debates over a comic called Housepets.

It might be but hey if it starts to get people talking about the storylines why not? It may also lead to more readers which is always good.

Discussing important ideas politely on a frivolous topic is better than arguing a serious idea rudely on a serious topic.

Welsh Halfwit wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:43 pm Discussing important ideas politely on a frivolous topic is better than arguing a serious idea rudely on a serious topic.

Discussing politely is better than arguing rudely in general I'd say.

I agree. First to rise their voice loses.

Amazee Dayzee wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:38 am So I shouldn't be expecting the five people I would meet in Heaven?

Well, I wouldn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Of course not. You are most likely to be one of the five people that the participants of that took part that they meet in Heaven.

Welsh Halfwit wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:43 pm Discussing important ideas politely on a frivolous topic is better than arguing a serious idea rudely on a serious topic.

I suppose in some contexts, because there are some extraordinarily serious topics in the world where there is no option BUT to be rude and angry.

Harry Johnathan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:50 am

Welsh Halfwit wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:43 pm Discussing important ideas politely on a frivolous topic is better than arguing a serious idea rudely on a serious topic.

I suppose in some contexts, because there are some extraordinarily serious topics in the world where there is no option BUT to be rude and angry.

Name at least one topic that objectively cannot be discussed politely and leaves you no choice but to argue rudely. I'm sure every topic can be discussed politely, folks just let their emotions get the better of them because they're passionate about whatever they believe.